Forums > RWBY

The Grimm Pyrrha Theory

Posts (250)

  • SAmaster


    #33291940 - 2 years ago

    So this is to quickly explain the Grimm Pyrrha theory in case anyone here is unaware of it, or wants to go over the particulars.

    For those unaware, there's been a popular theory floating around that Pyrrha wasn't killed in the V3 finale, but instead teleported to Salem who used various Grimm Powers to turn her into an evil minion.

    Short form:


    Long Form: 

    The theory is based into two components, Teleportation and Grimm Powers. Which sound pretty self-explanatory.


    Cinder can Teleport. We already know this is a thing in the setting thanks to Raven. And, as we'll get to later we have reason to believe Raven has Grimm Powers (admittedly not much). So the idea Cinder has the ability to teleport isn't too much of a stretch.

    Consider the following: We don't really know what Cinder's full power set it. Let's review-

    * She uses Dust and Weaves it into her dress to fight (not directly confirmed)

    * She can summon and dismiss her weapons. Notice she doesn't do this while fighting Amber, or when she's posing as a student. This suggest this is a power she shouldn't have (hence she's hiding it) and she got it after her fight with Amber.

    * She had half a set of Maiden Powers, and then a full set. This is likely the source of her fire powers.

    * On top of that she has a Semblance we can't really place.

    And also consider with the addition of Maidens we now no longer know what all the rules are for the setting. I think its certainly possible Salem gave Cinder some additional powers, some of them may be listed there, or she might have given her teleportation, or teleportation could be her semblance.

    An important thing to note is the way Cinder summons and dismisses her weapons. They break apart and reform, not unlike certain forms of teleportation. It's very possible her summoning and dismissing her weapons are her using a teleportation power.

    Now, lets move a bit from speculation and into some logic.

    Whatever happened to Ozpin?

    So, its heavily implied to us that Ozpin is held within the clutches of Salem in her Underworld. I propose he was teleported there. Lets look at what the alternative is.

    * Cinders defeated Ozzie in the secret basement and left him there.

    * Cinders flew up a broken elevator shaft to have a conversation with Kevin.

    * Cinders fights and kills P-Money atop the tower, only to be blasted by Ruby's Lazer Face.

    * There are a few possibilities from her.

    ** Ruby's Lazer Face is super effective! Cinders is now dead. This is certainly a possibility. But personally I feel it would be very sloppy to kill off Cinder like that in such an ambiguous manner. Also, given how Maiden Powers work, they should now be transferred to Ruby since Cinders was probably thinking a lot about the girl with the Lazer Face in her final moments.

    ** Ruby's Lazer Face is not very effective... Ruby is now in a coma. Cinders takes five seconds out of her busy schedule to bust a cap in the Coma Girl. This obviously didn't happen.

    ** Ruby's Lazer Face knocks Cinders out. Help comes.

    *** If help for Ruby comes first, most likely Qrow, Cinder is imprisoned for War Crimes. Possible, but I would think Qrow would mention this. Also, we get into the problem of Ozpin being missing.

    *** If help for Cinders comes first, most likely Emerald or Mercury, they take five seconds out of their busy schedule to bust a cap in the littlest Coma Girl.

    *** For some reason Ruby's Lazer Face doesn't adversely affect Cinders. Lets assume this happens.

    * For some reason Cinders decides not to bust a cap in the littlest Coma Girl who sent Kevin into permanent PTSD flashbacks.

    * Cinders goes back down the broken elevator shaft, takes Ozzie, who hasn't done anything at all during this time, and carries him back up the broken elevator shaft.

    * Cinders navigates through a warzone filled with Hunters, Hunter students, and Atlas Military without being caught or seen as far as we know.

    * Cinders navigates untold miles of wasteland to reach Salems Underworld. During this time Ozpin is kept subdued, and alive, which means food, water and bathroom breaks.

    Personally I feel that has too many moving parts to it, and leaves some massive glaring plotholes. I think it's almost certain Cinder has some kind of teleportation power.

    Here's my take.

    * Cinders sees RWBY's Lazer Face, and either teleports to Salem, having done everything she needed to anyway, deciding not to risk taking a Lazer Face to the Face, or teleports before too much damage is done to her. Leaving Ruby alone on the tower to be recovered by Qrow and friends.

    Now I also think Cinder's teleportation is one way. She can only teleport to Salems underworld. Otherwise she'd be using her teleportation more in combat scenarios, and she could have just teleported to avoid the Lazer Face, and teleported immediately back to bust a cap in the little Coma Girl. There's some wiggle room here for exactly how the mechanics of Cinder's Teleportation works since we can't be certain.

    Why though?

    Well why would Cinder do that, and what would that accomplish? Well, remember Cinders list? Remember how that plot thread went absolutely nowhere? What was that for? 

    * Rigging the tournament? Well we don't see Yang being added to the list. Why? Team CMEN didn't know Yang would be advancing far enough in the tournament until Team RWBY made the selections on their own. Perhaps it's a safe bet that P-Money would be selected for the finals by JNPR since she's the tournament champion. Still, I find it suspect we only find out about this list in regards to P-Money, never anyone else. If they had removed that scene entirely? Well we would still know CMEN is rigging the tournament thanks to the Queen Virus. Also, lets keep in mind that CMEN had no idea that Penny was a Robot when they were adding P-Money to the list, or that Penny would be in the tournament period, meaning the knowledge that P-Money was Magneto was pointless at that time.

    * Maiden Candidacy? Well ignoring how Ozpin hadn't picked her yet, Cinders left P-Money for dead in the stadium. And she seemed to find the secret basement all on her own. Seems Pyrrha was awfully ancillary for finding Amber.

    Remember that Cinders philosophy is taking away an enemies strength and using it against them. In fact she says this during the scene P-Money was put on the list. We see this with the Queen Virus using the Atlas Drones against Vale and Atlas Military. We also see her recruiting youngsters like Mercury and Emerald. While certainly we'd need more info shed on her MO, it's not unreasonable to think she might want to brainwash Pyrrha for evil.

    Grimm Powers

    Okay, so Pyrrha has been teleported to Salem. Possibly dead or dying. How is Salem going to convince Pyrrha that evil is fun? Cookies? 

    As for our evidence for Grimm Powers we have two solid pieces of evidence. One being Salem. I mean look at her. She practically holds up a neon flashing sign with her design that Grimm-Human hybrids are a thing.

    Secondly we have Cinder. Salems number two. During her confrontation with Amber we see Cinders use the Scarab to drain Amber of her aura and life. It's pretty obvious the Scarab was being used as a conduit. This also flat-out confirms that there are ways for humans to have some control over Grimm. Additionally however when Qrow interrupts this however, a lot of people have noticed that after this is when Cinders tattoo appears. Then at the V3 finale, we see Cinders quite clearly holding a conversation with Kevin, and Kevin NOT immediately try to eat her.

    This says for certain that Grimm Powers exist in some capacity. Whether they work like we think we do is a matter of debate, but whether they exist or not isn't.

    Additionally there are also theories that Raven and Qrow have Grimm Powers. Both isolate themselves from society, Raven's design has the same colorscheme as Grimm, black, red, and white, with a BIG Grimm Mask despite the fact she isn't in the White Fang. Qrow given his ability to shapeshift, which given the emphasis that had in the V3 stinger, isn't something mundane like Semblance. But there's no hard evidence to support those ideas.

    So, we have Salem, presumably incredibly power, and most definitely having Grimm Powers, delivered a plucky Canadian virgin by Cinders. Well, from there you have a 9-11 month time-skip to brainwash and imbue with dark magic into a loyal minion.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33291943 - 2 years ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    There is a couple things that need holes filled in but as a basic overview its not too far off. I have work so I cant spend the time to do so currently.

  • SAmaster


    #33291944 - 2 years ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Question, are there limits to how long a single post can be? Because if so, I'm worried I can't squeeze everything else in there.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33291954 - 2 years ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    Dont know

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33291968 - 2 years ago

    Well like I said before this one seems the most plausible both in terms of world and story.

  • Bumblebee4life


    #33292013 - 2 years ago


    • ###a class="re-button re-format redactor-toolbar-link-dropdown" title="Format" rel="format" role="button" aria-label="Format" tabindex="-1" aria-haspopup="true">Format
    • B
    • I
    • S
    • Outdent
    • Indent
    • Link
  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33292018 - 2 years ago

    In reply to Bumblebee4life


  • Bumblebee4life


    #33292025 - 2 years ago

    In reply to JROY

    I was posting what I think should happen to Pyrrah from volumes 3-10 but something must've happened. 

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33292030 - 2 years ago

    In reply to Bumblebee4life

    right gotcha. Honestly though I'm really dead center now for whether Pyrrha's gone for good or not now.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33292162 - 2 years ago

    Teleport Theory

    Teleport theory is the idea that when Pyrrha was "Killed" She in fact wasnt but rather teleported.

    The Main backbone of this theory is based on the fact Cinder's ability to summon her bow and arrows is never properly explained or shown. We never get a good look at it until the finale and even then all we can see is the particles that make the bow and arrow start off-screen.

    This alloyed by the fact how Pyrrha breaks apart and how the arrow breaks apart as it goes around the shield are very much alike.

    Some argue that Cinder is merely building her Bow and arrow out of Dust or materials surrounding her. The issue is this is never shown we never see material come from her dress in fact the closest view we have the finale we can see all of Cinder's dress and not a speck is coming from it. Nor are we shown or told that Dust can be used to construct complex items the closest is Glynda's ability but that is laid out as her semblance not Dust and we never see her assembly a complex item she reconstructs items but not remakes them into something as complex as a sword bow. The most we see is her forging a javelin but its a simple object.

    We also know Teleporting is a thing via Raven currently its unknown if that is a Semblance or an ability. Neo is also thought to teleport but that might be illusions. We know via Sun, Blake, and Flynt that you can have Semblances that are based on the same idea but work differently.

    Some argue that the only thing it could be is Pyrrha being destroyed but there is several types of teleports that look like you are being destroyed before being reconstructed somewhere else. Twilight Princess and Kingsglaive are 2 easy examples. So the effect may LOOK like something but not be easily enough.

    Some also argue that since Pyrrha was shot with an arrow to the chest she would be dead. That ignores Cinder's behavior which is a planner and a good one at that. Cinder if she was trying to kidnap Pyrrha and since she had the time to line up the shot would not make such a mistake. So her shooting Pyrrha in the chest was either not fatal or Cinder knew she had the medical attention waiting to save Pyrrha from it. Considering we are shown Cinder deconstructing her arrow in midflight then rebuilding it her having the ability to reshape an arrow to avoid being lethal is in the cards.

    Now the question is Why? What makes people think something is odd? 

    First there is the List which Cinder makes a note of putting Pyrrha on. We do not know the list but considering Cinder makes no effort to try to kill anyone and instead its only Ozpin clearly not going to letting her leave with the maiden powers and Pyrrha attacking her that creates her "Hero Kills"  the list does not seem to be focused on who to kill. It also doesnt make sense for the idea of how to rig the tournament as Breach hadnt happened yet and that was clearly how they were going to get the grimm in not the tournament which is Cinder modifing the plan to adapt.

    So the list is an odd one

    Then there is the fact Cinder's arrow in Pyrrha's chest glows. At the time we were shown that Pyrrha's Aura was broken and as demonstrated by Amber and even Pyrrha's heel wounds do not glow. Yet the Arrow to the chest does and pretty noticably too.

    Followed by Cinder's ability to destroy someone something not demonstrated by her at all before. When Pyrrha has Cinder in a choke hold with Milo Cinder heats up Milo which takes a few seconds to do and clearly is not liquid as you can see its squeeze inwards till it broke. And then a minute later she destroys a body utterly with no charge or obvious special attack? Very VERY odd.

    Speaking of Special attacks another odd piece is we see none of Cinder's trademark moves even her bow doesnt come out until the very end. Cinder sits back and blasts Pyrrha with fireblast. She doesnt get in close and strike with her Swords, and no explosive portals as her most obvious signature moves. Cinder doesnt even use other elements which the short bit with Ozpin shows her doing. Cinder does not attack like she normally does.

    Finally the Diadem. When Cinder Dusts Pyrrha, for lack of a better word since Ash isnt gold in color, only Pyrrha's Diadem is left behind nothing else. What makes this so odd is that Cinder drops it after a second for something that Cinder clearly had to be doing for it to survive she doesnt pay it any attention. Which is extremely odd add in Ozpin's cane and you have a weird tidbit.

    Now why would Cinder do this?

    If Cinder is able to control Pyrrha she would be a powerful tool. Pyrrha is an extremely powerful fighter if not the best in her generation her skills and ability are almost designed to be anti-human. So on a pure power level Pyrrha would be an extrmely powerful foe.

    Politically Pyrrha is also powerful as her known 4 years of championship make her stand out to people and know her. She can be used to spin the truth of the invasion and make it seem like her killing Penny was a powerplay by Vale against Atlas which she got caught up in.

    Finally since Pyrrha is well known her actions good or bad can effect people to the point she might be used to cause Grimm invasions by people reacting to her.

    So in short Pyrrha can be used as a wedge.


    This is a follow up that states Pyrrha will either be made into a grimm or be controlled by a Grimm after she is teleported.

    The idea comes from several spots.

    The first is Manga in the Manga the Knight Weiss fights in her trailer is called a mass of Possession grimm. The translator who did it was EXTREMELY clear that posssession made up the core concept of the words used. We know the Manga artist is being Supplied info by RT and they are trying to keep it canon from what they have said. So while some question if this is a Manga only thing the fact its so early in the manga lends strength to the idea that its actually a real detail the show hasnt gotten to yet but is actually true.

    The second is Cinder herself. Cinder when she uses the Grimm glove to absorb the maiden power gains a tattoo on her back once the glove breaks apart. The idea is that the tattoo is either the grimm or the contract for the grimm.

    The third is Salem. Salem is very clearly some kind of Human/Grimm hybrid whether because that is what she is or only what she appears to be the key concept of her design is mixing of Grimm and human.

    So the idea is that either Pyrrha becomes possessed by a Grimm or is transformed into a grimm and made to obey Cinder/Salem. 

  • HemoStork


    #33292173 - 2 years ago

    Potential of using Pyrrha as a political tool is a really strong argument for me. However, as I was thinking about it, a question popped up in my head. What about Emerald?

    Her Semblance can be used for that purpose. Additionally she can cast illusion on multiple people, as evidenced with the medics taking care of Mercury. She may need some training to do that, but Cinder is the type of person to force her if need be.

    And it isn't more hassle (in my opinion) than trying to possess Pyrrha with Grimm and control her.

    What are your thoughts on that?

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33292181 - 2 years ago

    In reply to HemoStork

    No because Emerald CANT control multiple minds.

    Those 2 minds are stretching her powers.

    Ugh, headache. One mind I can handle, but two is a stretch.

    Emerald Beginning of the end

    Emerald is useful on a one to one basis for any large groups of people she has no power. She might be able to learn to handle more then one mind but its going to be a limited number from what we know. So any large groups of people it wont work.

    It also doesnt work with TV when we get shown what Yang does vs what she sees its very different. So in televised apperances or the closest thing to it Emerald again falls short.

    And its only a hassle if the Payout isnt useful. For example if Pyrrha is only used a little and stirs up some trouble then yes too much Hassle.

    BUT if she manages to start a war with Atlas making it so attention is divided and power is being fragmented from the conflict then that makes her VERY useful.

    What truly makes Pyrrha useful or not is how they use her and from what we have seen from CInder she can use her extremely well.


    Also Emerald might have less control with more minds.

    Cinder and Neo are dressed the part of medics which if Emerald was in full control they wouldnt need as she could control what the actual medics see. BUT if her powers are limited with multiple minds using a costume then pumping them on everything is fine and looks normal would lower the strain creating complete outfits would cause.

    EDIT 2

    Also as evidenced by Amber if Emerald is not taking EVERYTHING into account she can create paradoxes that pull people out of the illusion such as when she moved her foot creating a dust cloud on a still day with an "empty" stretch of road plus a little girl completely alone in the middle of the road?

    It created enough issue Amber was able to not be completely taken in.

    So emerald even on a one to one basis doesnt have complete control.

    So having a real person do it is a LOT less of a hassle in terms of things to watch out for.

  • HemoStork


    #33292199 - 2 years ago

    In reply to revanninja

    While I agree with what you said, damn does that make Emerald underwhelming to me. One of the most powerful Semblances and that is the extent of it? Not that it isn't already impressive. I have had just hyped myself a little.

    On the plus side she can still be used to save on make up ;)

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33292287 - 2 years ago

    In reply to HemoStork

    Its not really underwhelming I think its more of a case we havent gotten a chance to see her go full out and REALLY mess with people. I think if she wanted to she can make you see and feel ANYTHING she wants you to.

  • SAmaster


    #33292312 - 2 years ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Is that you trying to add things I missed?

  • WrightKnight


    #33292319 - 2 years ago

    It's also a case of having clear limitations on what would be an absolute broken power without them.  But yeah, while she can make people see what she wants, she can't make them rationalize it.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33292324 - 2 years ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    What I was talking about is if say she is being chased and makes a leap to another building she can mess with your sense of balance or even judgement on how far something is from you.

    In combat where a lot of times things are happening so fast you cant think having a misleading sense at the wrong time can be fatal.

    You may not have the ability, focus or even time to realize that its not right until AFTER you act on it.

    There was this one scene in early Naruto where these 3 mist genins used a genjutsu to mess with their sense of directions making them THINK they were going in a straight line but in reality going around in circles.

    I think Em can do that pretty easily.

    In reply to SAmaster


    As always I focused more on the teleport since its kind of the backbone and grimm conversion isnt the only way there is straight out brainwashing using Em for example.

  • FettucCR


    #33292372 - 2 years ago

    This is a LONG post, but thank you for making it.It will come up handy, because many people is interested in this theory, so I'll keep it at hand.

  • FettucCR


    #33292382 - 2 years ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Also, having something tangible (like P-Monis) is way more powerful than having illusions. Emerald's semblance is a tool, while Grimm Pyrrha is a weapon. That's how I see it.

    There's another thing I was thinking: Cinder's summon or teleportation power. When she creates her ball dress, and when she protects the Vertibird from Glynda, the symbols that appear look similar to Glynda's. I was thinking it could be some sort of glyphs, a bit like the ones Weiss uses, but for a different effect. Cinder's might summon or teleport stuff, and Glynda is telekinesis, as has been established. But if Cinder can teleport things, it has to be a two-way ability, since she could send things (P-Monis) and recall them (bow, dress). I'm not sure how this affects the theory, but these are my two cents.

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33292389 - 2 years ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    To be honest SAMASTER I think it would be a good idea for the thread for theories in general.

  • HemoStork


    #33292394 - 2 years ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Maybe I were exaggerating a bit. In my opinion it already is the most powerful Semblance so far. And one of my favorite if I'm allowed to say.

    As to the theory, after the argument of using Pyrrha's influence and considering a certain scenario, I'm convinced it has great potential to be true.

    Just to make it clear I may not see it the same way you guys do.

  • The-Batman-Who-Laughs


    #33292416 - 2 years ago

    I really like the Grimm Pyrrah idea. But I think she'll come out looking like 

    her old self, except looking like Salem (the  white skin with red veins ) and wearing her old uniform in black and silver.

    And anyone a fan of the Grimm Pyrrah idea would probably like the Dark Penny 

    idea I've got posted on my profile. Come and see. If you want.

  • SAmaster


    #33292420 - 2 years ago

    In reply to Garro

    Also possible. But I like the idea of a monstrous appearance for Pyrrha. Not too beastly though.

  • The-Batman-Who-Laughs


    #33292426 - 2 years ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    Oh I forgot to say that she would have a Grimm look for her shield and spear/sword/rifle

    as well. 

    Grimm Pyrrah : "I'm sorry!" 

  • FettucCR


    #33292477 - 2 years ago

    I imagine Grimm Pyrrha to look like this: 


    What you think?